family relationships

  • blame guns?

    Important interview from Dr. Eric Wallace, Chicago pastor, about gun violence.

    https://crev.info/2018/08/pastor-blames-crime-evolution/
    Excerpt:
    "We need to change the hearts and minds of those folks who are committing these crimes. And they want to talk about gun violence as if the guns are running around and shooting people. It’s people shooting people, and we need to be able to minister to them and get them to have a heart transplant, if you will, through the power of the Holy Spirit."

  • book reviews

    Here are some more book reviews.  For earlier book reviews, see here.

     

    Messy Journey, by Lori Wildenberg

    This book is a collection of thoughts by a Christian mother, about parenting children who "go astray" from the way they were raised. Her daughter, who currently identifies as lesbian, currently has a good relationship with her mother and also contributed some parts of the book. The book shares anecdotes and discusses the importance of trying to keep the relationship going even when disagreements exist.  It talks about letting go of the urge to 'fix' one's child and surrendering the child to God.  It also has several other stories contributed by parents whose children are going through (or have gone through) various types of rebellion. This was an excellent book overall. I know many Christian parents whose children have wandered away from God, and I wish that all of them could read this book. The book does not provide "solutions" or "answers" per se, but encouragement for parents to know that they are not alone, and encouragement to keep trying, and true stories of parent-child relationships that have been restored. Recommended book.

    Creation & Evolution: Compatible or in Conflict? by Jay Seegert

    This is an excellent overview of the origins controversies, covering almost all of the related topics in a layman-focused, readable, general-audience fashion, with pictures and analogies. It covers both the scientific and Biblical arguments. It generally uses a presuppositional approach. For its audience, it explains things well (it does not go into deep depth in any area). This would be a great overview book to give someone.

    Sing, by Keith and Kristyn Getty

    This book is a discussion of congregational singing - its importance, the fact that God commands it, its benefits, how to do it, etc. It has some good points.

    From Creation to Salvation: What Jesus and the New Testament authors believed about Genesis, by Lita Cosner

    This book is basically a summary of the whole Bible, but with special emphasis on following the teaching about God's creation of the world, Adam/Eve, the Fall, Noah/Flood, etc (from Genesis 1-11) as it is developed and alluded to throughout the rest of the Bible. It has some good insights, but I was hoping for a more direct and powerful argument against the modern disdain for viewing Genesis historically that is often expressed in educated Christian circles. This book is almost closer to the "Stranger on the road to Emmaus" type of book or "One God One Message" type of book, rather than what its subtitle suggests. It is written in commentary style (semi-academic), with occasional sidebars of points about creation. I agree with all of the key doctrinal points it teaches, and most of the subpoints. It was not what I was expecting, but it still might be helpful for some people.

    The Great Good Thing, by Andrew Klavan

    He tells the story of his life, how he grew up in a Jewish family in New York City, became a writer, dealt with insanity and depression, then gradually over several decades (and therapy) came to a place of more happiness. Then, in the last 10 years, he came to believe in God, and then more specifically in Jesus the Christ. Beautiful book.

    Zombie Science, by Jonathan Wells

    This is a great book! He follows up on his 2000 book "Icons of Evolution", which pointed out supposed evidences for evolution used in biology textbooks which had already been discredited by scientists. In "Zombie Science", he shows that these are STILL being used 16 years later, and adds several more items. He discusses "vestigial" organs, whale evolution, Darwin's "Tree of Life", antibiotic resistance and cancer, and many other items. I was impressed with this book's balance and even-keeled tone. He never got 'preachy', just kept a smooth narrative running throughout the whole book. He believes in "Intelligent Design", (and an old earth), not creationism. But this book shows the extreme weakness of the evolutionary book. Well recommended!

  • "Uncle Sam has been a horrible father."

    Thought-provoking comments from an African American official about the Milwaukee riots.

    https://world.wng.org/2016/08/milwaukee_sheriff_speaks_the_truth

  • spring 2016 book reviews

    Here are some recent book reviews.  For older reviews, see http://tim223.xanga.com/category/book-reviews/

     

    What does the Bible really teach about homosexuality?  by Kevin DeYoung
    This is a great book! ... for two reasons.  First, the tone is wonderfully gentle.  Second, it accurately exegetes all the relevant Bible passages about homosexuality (Genesis 1-2, 19, Leviticus 18,20, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, etc), and shows that the traditional interpretation is the one that most accurately fits the Bible in its textual and cultural context.
    Regarding the tone, the author is EXTREMELY respectful, irenic, gentle, and welcoming toward homosexuals, while carefully presenting accurate doctrine.  It briefly answers all the revisionist claims, such as that the prohibitions against homosexual behavior might be directed only against violence (not so, in context), or that the ancients didn't know about 'orientation' and loving monogamous same-sex relationships (on the contrary, they did know about it, even from the time of Plato, hundreds of years before the New Testament.
    The book also has a great section answering objections, very gently but thoroughly.  Such as: "The Bible hardly ever mentions homosexuality", "Not that kind of homosexuality", "What about gluttony and divorce?", "The Church is supposed to be a place for broken people", "You're on the wrong side of history", "It's not fair", "The God I worship is a God of love", and "What about same-sex marriage?".
    The book also helpfully differentiates between experiencing feelings of same-sex attraction, versus acting on those feelings by engaging in same-sex activity.
    This is a good reference book or a good book to give to a homosexual person who is sincerely seeking the truth about what the Bible says.  It is short, and to-the-point.  Excellent.

     
    Justification Reconsidered, by Stephen Westerholm
    The author critiques the "New Perspective on Paul" (NPP), which over the past 50 years or so has claimed that Paul (author of much of the New Testament of the Bible) when speaking of being "justified by faith" was not concerned with how people could find gr huace and mercy individually for their sins and acquire individual forgiveness, but instead how people (such as Gentiles) could be enter into the "covenant family of God" and acquire the covenant blessings. NPP claims that Paul's Pharisaical and Judaizer colleagues were not teaching 'salvation-by-works' but rather were teaching 'Gentiles-cannot-participate'... and NPP claims that justification is not the immediate announcement that we have been given "righteous"(innocent,holy) legal status before God, but instead NPP claims there is a temporary justification based on our faith which allows participation in the "covenant", then a final "eschatological justification" based on our works which determines whether we enter heaven or hell.  Thus NPP muddies the difference between justification and sanctification, and ends up basically teaching that we are justified by our works.
    Westerholm step-by-step and very politely demolishes the NPP claims, going through 1 Thessalonians, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, and then Romans, and showing that Paul was indeed concerned about "righteous" as referring to the moral quality opposed to sinfulness (not just the legal status of being "vindicated in court")... Westerholm goes through all the relevant passages, especially Romans, and shows that the NPP claims don't fit the text and context.   Westerholm is gracious to the NPP scholars (N.T.Wright, James Dunn, E.P.Sanders, Krister Stendahl, Douglas Campbell, etc) and points out that many of their applications are still useful and correct (such as the fact that Paul's "salvation by faith" teaching breaks down racial and ethnic barriers to the gospel) despite their doctrine being so wrong. It's a little dense sometimes, but worth reading to the end.

     
    The Tyranny of Experts, by Willaim Easterly
    In this book the author makes the case that most "development" efforts (aid, relief, etc to poor countries) impose plans made by a small group of 'experts', which end up trampling the actual rights of the poor.  For example, some UN or World Bank group decided that some grand project should be enacted in order to receive aid... the local autocratic dictator of the poor country enforces this by driving out the locals at gunpoint (as actually happened in 2010 in Mubende district in Uganda, for a World Bank-sponsored forestry project - 20000 farmers were evicted).
    The author makes the further case that true economic improvement of a nation, or a region, or a city, happens by individuals seeking to improve their own family's situation, by having the freedom to jump into whatever business opportunity they see around them.
    This is an excellent, powerful, book... somewhat depressing and somewhat pedantic at times, but with a powerful case.  This would be excellent reading for a discussion group for people who work in development environments in western nations.
    The book is generally secular.  Thus it misses out on the fact that the concepts of the rights of the poor only makes sense if they are in fact 'endowed by their creator with' those rights.  The spread of the Gospel would (I think) be the most effective way to help a poor country in a long-term sense.  However, Easterly's points are also well-made.

     
    Competent to Counsel, by Jay Adams
    The thesis of this book is that you don't need specialized academic training in counseling (i.e. studying Freudian and Rogerian counseling techniques) to be a good counselor.  (Indeed, these approaches typically don't help people,dingfrom what he said.)  Instead, anyone (especially a pastor) who knows the Bible well and is willing to speak the (sometimes hard) truth in love to people can be 'competent to counsel'.  He tells of his own and other pastors' experiences, and shares a lot of techniques.  The main point is getting people to admit their problems, take responsibility, and really want to change (instead of merely considering that they are 'mentally ill', as in, under the influence of something they have no control over).  Then, they can take steps to change the bad habits in their lives.  He speaks of "nouthetic" counseling, which comes from the Greek word "to warn, to admonish".
    Nouthetic counselors can counsel both Christian and nonChristian people,... but if I remember correctly, the author correctly implies that counseling of Christians has a special extra success factor. It is important for people to realize how God sees them, and agree with God's perspective (sinners in need of a Savior)... once they see this and come to believe in Jesus Christ they can seek to overcome sinful habits with the power of God's spirit.
    This book is filled with practical advice, and is highly recommended to read and consider.  However, it is EXTREMELY politically-incorrect, in many ways, both in the discussion of certain maladies (gender dysphoria and homosexuality are no longer considered undesirable deviations by secular mainstream psychologists/counselors), and in the method of counseling (he advocates a little bit of listening and asking probing questions, then advancing practical steps to solve the relationship or other problems, beginning even as soon as the first session, in sending home "homework" / practice steps for the client to do before the next session).  If a client cannot be helped in 8 sessions or so (often even less), there is likely something that they are hiding or unwilling to let go of, which means that they cannot overcome their symptomatic problems.
    This book is 30 or 40 years old.  One thing I would wish for is a modern edition, updated with knowledge as of 2016, especially for today's hot issues (including research and anecdotes from Mark Yarhouse, Sam Allberry, Wesley Hill, Rosaria Butterfield, etc).

     

  • More book reviews

    Here are four recent book reviews.  (Visit this link for all my book reviews http://tim223.xanga.com/category/book-reviews/ )

     

    The Art of Neighboring, by Jay Pathak and Dave Runyon
    This is a great book, about reaching out to build friendships with neighbors, and ultimately show not only the love of Christ to them, but possibly also eventually share the specific message (gospel) of Christ with them too.  The book points out that we often don't know our neighbors.  It shares the importance of knowing them, and provides practical ideas for getting to know them.  It talks a lot about our attitude... loving, respectful, not arrogant (willing to ask/receive help from neighbors)...  How to overcome fear... etc.  It has a lot of stories from their own experiences in Denver. It also has good advice for relationships in general, such as their chapters on establishing boundaries, and forgiveness, and focusing on specific 'people of peace', etc.  Interesting ideas for group neighborhood fellowship: outdoor movie nights, picnics, block parties.  Recommended book!

    True Love Dates, by Debra Fileta
    This is a fairly typical Christian dating advice book.  It gives all the standard and common-sense (if sometimes cliche) Christian dating & relationships advice.  She organizes her points as follows: 1. Date inward (get to know yourself), 2. Date outward (get to know other people), and 3. Date upward (cultivate your relationship with Jesus Christ).  Point #1 was the most unusual... she recommends spending plenty of time, money, energy, effort, etc in getting to know oneself.  She has a section in chapter 12 called "Jesus can't be your boyfriend" in which she inveighs against the commonly-given Christian advice that Jesus ought to satisfy all romantic longings.  However, she tends to get very close to doling out that same advice herself, in many places.  It is a hard line to walk correctly, because she's right - God did design most people for marriage relationships, but marriage will never ultimately satisfy.  Overall I partially recommend this book... it is fairly good and might be helpful to some people, especially those who have not read other Christian relationship books.

    Rid of My Disgrace, by Justin and Lindsey Holcomb
    This book is about sexual assault, and in particular a Christian counseling response to it.  It starts by giving stats/etc about sexual assault (and helping victims to name/recognize it for what it was), then spends several chapters talking about the shame, guilt, disgrace, etc that victims usually feel, including real life stories.  Then there are some chapters at the end about God's grace as shown in the Old Testament and New Testament.  Overall this is a good, balanced, book (including both the psychological/counseling perspective and the Biblical perspective).  I think this might be worth using as a discussion starter in counseling someone who has been hurt.  Here's an excerpt from the chapter called "Mandy's Story."  " [7 years afterward]....I began to see the fullness of the evil done against me.  Progressively, as the magnitude of the evil grew in my awareness, it was amazing for me to realize that God is even bigger. .... Following Him through that dark valley and resting in His real promises rather than my own ideas became the true healing that I needed.  I came to know the true God, sovereign over all, who is ultimately good.  And I was his daughter, cherished and loved by him even in the midst of being raped.  When I reached that point, my heart was soft toward God, and I asked him what else he had for me.  I remember driving to work saying, "Is there more, here?" And that's when it hit me.  I saw their faces.  I saw the men who raped me and felt a surprising compassion towards them.  I began to cry out for them, "God save them." Just as I was an enemy of God in need of reconciliation, so they need to be reconciled by the blood of Christ.  I wept for them for quite a while and still often find myself tearing up on their behalf, wishing that I could see them face-to-face and tell them of a great God who is bigger than their harmful acts of violence, who loves them to the point of crushing his own Son to deliver them from death.  This forgiveness was a miracle.  I have found freedom in loving them with the love of Christ.  My anger, bitterness, resentment, escape, numbness, denial, self-pity, or any other response is not capable of removing their sin.  Nothing but the blood of Christ will pay their debt.  And so I can look back on that night, recognizing the fullness of the pain God counted me worthy to suffer, and also to look on it with the joy of knowing my God in a more intimate and magnificent way.  It has become a mark of God's help in my life, a place where he ordained healing for me ......."

    Shame Interrupted, by Edward Welch
    This is a fascinating book.  It is a thorough, 300-page, study of shame (and honor & healing).  What is shame?  (there are several types... due to our sin or due to our weakness/inadequacy... foisted upon us by others or imposed upon ourselves... etc)  Why do we feel it?  What are the sources?  And especially, how did/does God address and 'interrupt' and heal our shame, in various different ways, throughout the Bible?  Very unusual book in terms of writing style, but worth reading, perhaps even studying in a group together.  It is not just for counselors or counselees... I think everyone could benefit.
    Quote: (p. 151-2)
    "You have known fractures and enmity in relationships, and sometimes you feel helpless to do anything about them.  At other times you don't want to do anything about them.  But if you have known God's power in such a way that you, an outcast, have been accepted, you will want to invite others to peace with God and peace with other people.
    "Peacemakers renounce violence and vigilante strategies. They renounce them even at the level of their imaginations. They don't wish evil on others in private but play nice in public.  It sounds impossible, especially if you have had an enemy.  But it makes complete sense when you remember that you were an outsider and an enemy when Jesus brought you in and said, "Peace to you."
    "How you actually function as a peacemaker is not always easy to determine.  But we know this: shamed people feel powerless, and what could be more powerful than being an agent of peace in the midst of war?  What could be more powerful than disarming someone with love?  Peacemaking is, indeed, an honorable profession.
    "If anyone knows shame, it is the wife of a cocaine addict. Her husband chose a drug over her. A drug - not even another human being. Now add the accessories of betrayal- the lies, empty promises, lost jobs, mysterious disappearances of her jewelry, all done in full view of family and friends. Peace seemed impossible, but she knew God's peace and she always looked for opportunities to express it.
    "After a few months of his sobriety, she had a sense that he had gotten high, so she asked him about it.  Apparently, he had made some changes because this time he told her the truth, even though he knew it might cost him what was left of his marriage. 
    "He could never have predicted her response: 'What will we do about this?'
    "'We!' Peacemakers pursue unity in relationships. They think in terms of 'we', not only 'you.'
    "It was the last time he got high, and that was ten years ago.
    "Peacemaking is a powerful and honorable profession, indeed.
    "Yet peacemakers are not always successful. Neither peacemaking in general nor a kingdom lifestyle in general will always win you points with others. In other words, the way of honor is not by expert peacemaking but by being connected to the King.  ......."

     

  • Book Reviews - 2015'ish

    (Visit this link for all my book reviews http://tim223.xanga.com/category/book-reviews/ )

    Why God Calls Us To Dangerous Places, by Kate McCord
    This is a beautiful, thought-provoking book, interwoven with stories from her experiences of 9 years in Afghanistan.  Why do we go (or support those who go)?  Primarily, because God loves those people, and His love begins to transform us so that we begin to love them too.  She has great insights about loss, PTSD, ministry burnout, etc... great insights on how to rest in God and be at peace when all around you comes crashing down, when your friends die (or are murdered), when you are threatened, etc.  When terrorists plot to attack us and do attack us, may our heart be that described in this book.  So far opposite from "let's nuke them all", let our heart instead be, "Who will go to tell them about the love of Jesus?"  See also my previous review of her (excellent) book "In the Land of Blue Burqas".

    The 5 Love Languages, by Gary Chapman
    You've probably heard of this book, even if you haven't read it.  I finally got around to reading it.  I was afraid that it was going to be oversimplistic... but it was not.  His main point is that people experience 'feeling loved' in very different ways (words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch), and that husbands and wives need to learn how to speak the other's love language.  He explains how he 'discovered' each one by various conversations with his clients (he is a professional counselor).  He includes lots of stories, including about those whose marriages were falling apart.  He is a Christian, but keeps most of the book 'generic' and secular... until the last chapter or so, when he explains about Christ's love.  Excellent, worth reading, overall.

    The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield
    This is the true story of how a very liberal and atheistic woman found Christ.  She explains her journey into identifying as a lesbian, and her journey to become an English professor at Syracuse University, teaching Gay and Lesbian Studies.  She happened to become connected with a caring Christian, who took the time to invite her to dialog regularly about matters of faith over dinner with himself and his wife.  Through this friendship, she reevaluated Christ and the Bible, and eventually came to believe in Christ.  This began to massively change her lifestyle, as she chronicles.  Later in her life, she became married, became an adoptive/foster mom, and homeschooled her children.  This is a beautiful, well-written, testimony... well worth reading.

    The Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans
    This book discusses relationships (primarily husband-wife) where one person (typically, but not always, the husband) verbally abuses the other person.  Most of the book is focused on description (and true stories).  She categories all people as holding to either a "Power-over" mindset or a "Personal power" mindset, which is rather simplistic, but there is some value in the distinction.  (The "Power-over" mindset perfectly describe the consequences of the Fall that the Bible discusses in Genesis 3:16.)  Chapter 11 and 12 have some great, helpful, advice on how to respond to abuse in a way that will hopefully cause the abuser to notice the problem and begin to change.  Basically, 'set limits'/'boundaries' in your own mind before the abuse happens (for example, 'I will not allow him to yell at me', or 'I will not allow him to demean me'), and then if it happens, respond forcefully 'Cut it out', or 'I will not accept that sort of speech', or, walk away.  In cases of physical abuse, of course, flee.  Chapter 13 on recovery is also good.  Convicting for all to read, and helpful if (/when) we have friends going through this type of marital stress, to be able to provide support and counsel.  Worth reading (or at least skimming, chapters 1, 11, 12, 13).  However, sadly, it is completely secular... so unable to discuss the powerful wisdom from Ephesians, etc.  Eggerichs' "Love and Respect" is more helpful in this area, and also even "For Men Only"/"For Women Only" by the Feldhahns (even though the latter mostly restrains itself to secular points).

    And the Word Came With Power, by Joanne Shetler and Patricia Purvis
    Powerful true story(ies) of how the Bible was translated for the Balangao people in the Philippines.  She shares many stories from her life there.  Especially powerful were all the times when God brought about events that she thought were catastrophic, but actually turned out for the best.  She prayed for the salvation of her host family for a LONG time, and nothing happened.  But eventually, they became believers in Jesus, and became powerful proponents of the gospel.  Also fascinating to hear about the confrontations between the evil spirits and the Spirit of God in the Christians.  Highly recommended book.

    The Post-Church Christian: dealing with the generational baggage of our faith, by J. Paul Nyquist and Carson Nyquist
    This book very well exposes and airs the reactionary complaints that millenials have against the 'institutionalized', 'tradition-bound', 'organized-religion', 'overprotective', 'cultural-christianity', 'anti-homosexual', 'judgmental', 'overly-political', 'hypocritical', Church (as they consider it).
    Unfortunately, the response that J.Paul Nyquist tries to give to his son is rather weak.  He basically says 'try to be understanding to us (the older Christians), give us the benefit of the doubt, cut us some slack, understand our historical context'.  But our response should be to go back to Jesus, that iconoclastic, 'have you never read the scriptures' Man.
    Typical paragraph from the book: "Thirty years ago, the American evangelical church member would never dream of being caught in a bar. Today, churches are being planted there. Amid the social environment found in pubs, we see opportunities to express the hope of Christ to those who enjoy a pint as they talk about life."
    Their main takeaway points: don't give up on the church.  Increase authenticity, yes, sure, fine.  Remove excessive linkages between "God and country", sure.  Remove unbiblical legalism, yes by all means.  But don't throw out the Church - it has an important God-given function.   With this point, I agree.

    You and Me Forever, by Francis and Lisa Chan
    The Chans discuss marriage in this book, but first, they discuss putting Jesus at the center and top priority of one's life.  That is their main point... to stop focusing so much on marriage or singleness, and focus more on the kingdom of God in whatever station of life.  Since they are themselves married, it comes across as slightly tone-deaf to the struggles singles have, however, their bracing 'focus on Jesus'/'put His kingdom first' message is important and needed and overall Biblical.  They make much of Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 7, and other passages.  They also generally live out what they preach, enhancing their message's impact.  Good book, a little strident at times, but worth reading and pondering.

    Seven Marks of a New Testament Church, by David Alan Black
    Excellent short book (only 50 pages).  He talks about these "7 marks"- Evangelistic preaching, Christian baptism, apostolic teaching, genuine relationships, Christ-centered gatherings, fervent prayer, sacrificial living, based on Acts 2.

    Tactics, by Gregory Koukl
    Excellent book.  When people hear of 'tactics' in the context of apologetics, most millenials are turned off because they assume it's about manipulation and argumentation, which they want to avoid.  Instead, Koukl presents ways of using questions to turn around conversations that start out with someone asking you a hostile question related to your faith, so that you can expose the deeper beliefs underlying the question, and move into a respectful, healthy, dialog.  This book is worth reading over and over, and practicing its contents, not for the purpose of manipulation, but for the sake of truly loving our neighbors, and helping them find out the awesome truth about Jesus.

    From Heaven He Came and Sought Her
    This book is a collection of essays about Particular Atonement ("Limited Atonement").  It thoroughly covers the historical views of the Church in the past centuries, and then gets into the Scriptural/theological discussion.  It's a tough, slow, closely-reasoned read, but worth slogging through.

    The Genesis Account, by Jonathan Safarti
    This is a scientific and theological commentary on Genesis 1-11.  It is a very thorough, even, solid, well-documented, well-reasoned, and objective commentary.  As a reference book, it's not for light reading (some of Sarfati's other books like "Refuting Evolution" or "Refuting Compromise" are easier to read), but it's well worth slowly reading.  It covers all the major scientific evidences for/against various age theories of the earth and evolution, and all the current and past hermeneutical interpretations of Genesis 1-11.  Excellent.

    Cold Case Christianity, A Homicide Detective Investigates The Claims of the Gospels, by J. Warner Wallace
    This is an awesome book.  It focuses on whether the gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) about Jesus are accurate or not.  The author was an atheist until his thirties, and a homicide detective who specialized in solving cold cases (unsolved crimes from decades past).  When he began to investigate the gospel accounts, he realized that they have all the marks of true eyewitness accounts.  This book covers the same historical facts as many other apologetics books (Josh McDowell, etc), but is extremely well-written, and with a fresh perspective.

    Debating Darwin's Doubt, edited by David Klinghoffer
    This book is basically a collection of online articles written as back-and-forth debate followup to Steven Meyer's "Darwin's Doubt".  It discusses the major objections of all the critics, and offers rebuttal.  It is a little hard to read, and a little repetitive, but overall a good, very solid and thorough, rebuttal of the critics' arguments and confirmation that Meyer's basic point was correct: the sudden appearance of Cambrian animals in the fossil layer cannot be explained through Darwinian/neoDarwinian evolution, nor through any other non-intelligent materialistic causes.  An Intelligent Designer is the proper inference to the Cambrian fossil record.

(I use 'tags' and 'categories' almost interchangeably... see below)

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