December 28, 2011
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Buddhism vs Christianity, Ruth/Boaz, "Human Zoos"
Three topics for tonight: (1) Buddhism vs Christianity, (2) Ruth/Boaz, and (3) "Human zoos" exhibit.
1. Buddhism vs Christianity: (if I am mischaracterizing anything, please let me know!)
- Buddhism is a philosophical system, so its success is unaffected by the historical genesis of the movement. Christianity is just the opposite: it is based in the historical life, teachings, claims, death, and resurrection of its central figure, Jesus Christ. If the alleged historical facts surrounding Jesus are false, then Christianity crumbles. But if the facts are true, then Christianity completely destroys the Buddhist philosophical worldview... not because Buddhism/Buddhists are stupid (in fact they are often very intelligent), but because they are misinformed... they do not have the crucial historical information which, if only they knew it, demonstrates their beliefs to be false.
- Buddhism teaches that everything is linked in a cause-and-effect/karmic relationship, meaning that there is no separate "God" "out there" who created the Universe, rather, everything proceeds like clockwork. Further, Buddhism says that DESIRE is the source of all unrest and striving... and that if only people could REALIZE (get 'enlightened') this 'truth' (that the fully-causally-connected universe is all that there is), they would begin to relax and stop craving and acquire inner peace. Meditation/etc (and the other various 'steps'), says Buddhism, are the path toward that peace. Eventually, after several reincarnations, one can achieve total 'oneness' with the universe and dissolution of (the illusion of) self, achieving complete peace/harmony.
- Buddhism is PARTIALLY RIGHT according to the Bible, in that "lust" (literally "over-desire", craving) is the source of much discord. Notice these Bible texts:
James 4:1-2 "What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask."Up to that last sentence, a Buddhist could agree. But that last sentence??? "Ask" WHO?
A Buddhist would say, faced with need or sorrow, "I just need to understand that there is no ultimate good or evil; it's all merely an illusion; it's all merely a cause-and-effect mechanistic universe",... not, as the Bible recommends, "I just need to ask God for His help".2 Peter 1:2-4
"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust."A Buddhist could agree on that last phrase, that lust causes corruption, but would immediately disagree on the best way to remedy the situation. The Bible clearly states that it is the "TRUE" "knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord" which sets one free from lust and corruption. Ultimate reality is not a cold impersonal clockwork cause-and-effect universe, but a living, loving, wise, omnipotent, (tri-)personal, God, who has created the universe and us, and who offers us eternal happiness with him.
1 Peter 1:13b
"...fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Psalm 37:4
"Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart."Unlike Buddhism, which recommends ceasing from all desire, Christianity recommends DESIRING GOD with all one's heart. Christianity / the Bible says that DESIRING GOD is the best way to become truly happy... because only God can truly satisfy the human heart.
So it is established that Buddhism and Christianity are "different" and cannot possibly both be true. But is it possible to know whether one or the other is "correct"?
A Buddhist or Hindu might say (and I have heard them say), "there are so many religions and philosophies out there... how do you know what's right?" or "..there is no way to know which one of them is correct." From their perspective, that makes sense, because it's all philosophy-based, and although one can say "I like this philosophy better than that philosophy", there's no objectively 'true', cross-personal, philosophy which is demonstrably better than all others.
But Christianity is true, and Buddhism and Hinduism are false... and demonstrably so! ...not because the philosophies of Christianity are better than the philosophies of Buddhism or Hinduism... not because Christians are nicer or smarter people than Buddhists or Hindus... simply because of the historical revelation of God (the one, true, Creator God) (the God of the Bible), primarily in Jesus Christ. God came down to earth (celebrated at Christmas), walked around, taught, lived, died, and rose again... and it is because of that historical fact that we can know that the pantheistic/atheistic philosophies such as Buddhism are false...
2. I recently re-read the book of Ruth, and as always it was delightful. Here are some thoughts about Boaz (etc), one of the main characters.
Notice, as you read the excerpt below, Boaz's generosity to those who do not seem to have any claim upon it...
Ruth 1:22 So Naomi returned, and with her Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter-in-law, who returned from the land of Moab. And they came to Bethlehem at the beginning of barley harvest.
2:1 Now Naomi had a kinsman of her husband, a man of great wealth, of the family of Elimelech, whose name was Boaz. 2 And Ruth the Moabitess said to Naomi, "Please let me go to the field and glean among the ears of grain after one in whose sight I may find favor." And she said to her, "Go, my daughter." 3 So she departed and went and gleaned in the field after the reapers; and she happened to come to the portion of the field belonging to Boaz, who was of the family of Elimelech. 4 Now behold, Boaz came from Bethlehem and said to the reapers, "May the LORD be with you." And they said to him, "May the LORD bless you." 5 Then Boaz said to his servant who was in charge of the reapers, "Whose young woman is this?" 6 The servant in charge of the reapers replied, "She is the young Moabite woman who returned with Naomi from the land of Moab. 7 And she said, ‘Please let me glean and gather after the reapers among the sheaves.’ Thus she came and has remained from the morning until now; she has been sitting in the house for a little while."
8 Then Boaz said to Ruth, "Listen carefully, my daughter. Do not go to glean in another field; furthermore, do not go on from this one, but stay here with my maids. 9 Let your eyes be on the field which they reap, and go after them. Indeed, I have commanded the servants not to touch you. When you are thirsty, go to the water jars and drink from what the servants draw." 10 Then she fell on her face, bowing to the ground and said to him, "Why have I found favor in your sight that you should take notice of me, since I am a foreigner?" 11 Boaz replied to her, "All that you have done for your mother-in-law after the death of your husband has been fully reported to me, and how you left your father and your mother and the land of your birth, and came to a people that you did not previously know. 12 May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge." 13 Then she said, "I have found favor in your sight, my lord, for you have comforted me and indeed have spoken kindly to your maidservant, though I am not like one of your maidservants."Some thoughts / discussion questions -
- Do you think Boaz's generosity was to all "outsiders", or only to Ruth? (more on this soon)
- Notice that "she HAPPENED to come to the portion of the field belonging to Boaz"... Cf. Romans 8:28, nothing happens by chance... especially to those who are seeking God...
- Notice Ruth's apparent very high reputation ("has been fully reported to me...") (cf. 3:11 "all my people in the city know that you are a woman of excellence"), even as a Moabitess (an 'outsider', a 'heathen' by birth/culture, one who would normally be disdained within Israel's culture)...
- Notice in v. 12, that coming to live within Israel was roughly equivalent to believing in the LORD (the God of the Israelites) as the true God / the most powerful God. In Ruth's case this was especially true because she specifically stated her belief in God in chapter 1, and left behind all her family and opportunity for remarriage/financial security in order to learn more about God. Ruth's choice was the exact opposite of the choice described in Tim Keller's book "Counterfeit Gods"... her choice was the one recommended by Otto Konig's messages about surrender... she left "everything" behind (except Naomi, but Naomi was more of a burden on Ruth than vice versa) in order to seek God. Hence, one of the points of Ruth is that the "wages"/"refuge"/reward of the LORD is huge and well worth leaving everything behind for.
- Ruth 1:1, 2:9, 2:22, etc - it was a dangerous time to be without a male protector in Israel. Like today's Congo and other places. Ruth chose this life voluntarily to follow God and help Naomi, instead of moving back in with her father like her sister did.
- Regarding gleaning - there was no "welfare" system back then... instead, there was something better: God's law instructed that landowner farmers were to leave the corners of their sown fields for the poor to harvest. In this way the problem of poverty was addressed, and also the problem of indigence (the poor had to work for their food too... it was not simply given to them). In this case Ruth worked all day.
- But the landowners obviously had quite a bit of leeway in how they implemented God's command. In this case Boaz went out of his way... see verse 16 below...Ruth 2:14 At mealtime Boaz said to her, "Come here, that you may eat of the bread and dip your piece of bread in the vinegar." So she sat beside the reapers; and he served her roasted grain, and she ate and was satisfied and had some left. 15 When she rose to glean, Boaz commanded his servants, saying, "Let her glean even among the sheaves, and do not insult her. 16 Also you shall purposely pull out for her some grain from the bundles and leave it that she may glean, and do not rebuke her."
17 So she gleaned in the field until evening. Then she beat out what she had gleaned, and it was about an ephah of barley. 18 She took it up and went into the city, and her mother-in-law saw what she had gleaned. She also took it out and gave Naomi what she had left after she was satisfied. 19 Her mother-in-law then said to her, "Where did you glean today and where did you work? May he who took notice of you be blessed."
- 22 liters of barley grain in one day...
- Boaz apparently had a similar heart as Job, as follows:29:11 For when the ear heard, it called me blessed,
And when the eye saw, it gave witness of me,
12 Because I delivered the poor who cried for help,
And the orphan who had no helper.
13 The blessing of the one ready to perish came upon me,
And I made the widows heart sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
15 I was eyes to the blind
And feet to the lame.
16 I was a father to the needy,
And I investigated the case which I did not know.
17 I broke the jaws of the wicked
And snatched the prey from his teeth.
30:25 Have I not wept for the one whose life is hard?
Was not my soul grieved for the needy?
31: 16 If I have kept the poor from their desire,
Or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail,
17 Or have eaten my morsel alone,
And the orphan has not shared it
18 (But from my youth he grew up with me as with a father,
And from infancy I guided her),
19 If I have seen anyone perish for lack of clothing,
Or that the needy had no covering,
20 If his loins have not thanked me,
And if he has not been warmed with the fleece of my sheep,
21 If I have lifted up my hand against the orphan,
Because I saw I had support in the gate,
22 Let my shoulder fall from the socket,
And my arm be broken off at the elbow.
23 For calamity from God is a terror to me,
And because of His majesty I can do nothing.
31:32 The alien has not lodged outside,
For I have opened my doors to the traveler.Back to Ruth: 2:19: So she told her mother-in-law with whom she had worked and said, "The name of the man with whom I worked today is Boaz." 20 Naomi said to her daughter-in-law, "May he be blessed of the LORD who has not withdrawn his kindness to the living and to the dead." Again Naomi said to her, "The man is our relative, he is one of our closest relatives." 21 Then Ruth the Moabitess said, "Furthermore, he said to me, ‘You should stay close to my servants until they have finished all my harvest.’" 22 Naomi said to Ruth her daughter-in-law, "It is good, my daughter, that you go out with his maids, so that others do not fall upon you in another field." 23 So she stayed close by the maids of Boaz in order to glean until the end of the barley harvest and the wheat harvest. And she lived with her mother-in-law.
Ruth 3:1 Then Naomi her mother-in-law said to her, "My daughter, shall I not seek security for you, that it may be well with you? 2 Now is not Boaz our kinsman, with whose maids you were? Behold, he winnows barley at the threshing floor tonight. 3 Wash yourself therefore, and anoint yourself and put on your best clothes, and go down to the threshing floor; but do not make yourself known to the man until he has finished eating and drinking. 4 It shall be when he lies down, that you shall notice the place where he lies, and you shall go and uncover his feet and lie down; then he will tell you what you shall do." 5 She said to her, "All that you say I will do."
6 So she went down to the threshing floor and did according to all that her mother-in-law had commanded her. 7 When Boaz had eaten and drunk and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain; and she came secretly, and uncovered his feet and lay down. 8 It happened in the middle of the night that the man was startled and bent forward; and behold, a woman was lying at his feet. 9 He said, "Who are you?" And she answered, "I am Ruth your maid. So spread your covering over your maid, for you are a close relative." 10 Then he said, "May you be blessed of the LORD, my daughter. You have shown your last kindness to be better than the first by not going after young men, whether poor or rich. 11 Now, my daughter, do not fear. I will do for you whatever you ask, for all my people in the city know that you are a woman of excellence. 12 Now it is true I am a close relative; however, there is a relative closer than I. 13 Remain this night, and when morning comes, if he will redeem you, good; let him redeem you. But if he does not wish to redeem you, then I will redeem you, as the LORD lives. Lie down until morning."- Ruth was apparently very submissive or obedient (to Naomi)
- The custom described in 3:4-13, of levirate marriage, is another good invention (sanctioned by God in the Mosaic Law) for how that particular theocratic agrarian society could cope with the death of a husband (primary breadwinner in the agrarian culture)
- Yet, Boaz could have said 'No'... as did the un-named "closer-relative"... Why did Boaz not worry about "jeopardizing his sons' inheritance"? (4:6 below) Was Boaz unmarried? The text neither confirms nor denies this...?
- Boaz, in saying yes, is promising far more than grain or financial assistance to Ruth... He is promising himself... everything he owns...
- Yet it was Naomi who initiated this! Not Ruth, and not even Boaz...
- What in the world does Boaz mean by "You have shown your last kindness to be better than the first"??? What was the first "kindness"-- Ruth's decision to glean in Boaz's field??? Apparently so. This reveals the almost rediculously generous and humble heart of Boaz... (The beggar decides to accept aid from him --> "Wow, you (beggar) are so kind to have done so!")... or perhaps, revealing a shy love for Ruth? A secret hope that she (probably between 15-20 years old) might ask Boaz to redeem her instead of the closer relative or instead of getting married to some young guy? "You have shown your last kindness to be better than the first by not going after young men, whether poor or rich."3:14 So she lay at his feet until morning and rose before one could recognize another; and he said, "Let it not be known that the woman came to the threshing floor." 15 Again he said, "Give me the cloak that is on you and hold it." So she held it, and he measured six measures of barley and laid it on her. Then she went into the city. 16 When she came to her mother-in-law, she said, "How did it go, my daughter?" And she told her all that the man had done for her. 17 She said, "These six measures of barley he gave to me, for he said, ‘Do not go to your mother-in-law empty-handed.’" 18 Then she said, "Wait, my daughter, until you know how the matter turns out; for the man will not rest until he has settled it today."
- Boaz apparently never let an opportunity pass, to give generously to someone in need! "Do not go to your mother-in-law empty-handed" --> "six measures of barley"...!! Was this how he treated every needy person? Or was there already a special dose of generosity in his heart toward Ruth?
Ruth 4:9 Then Boaz said to the elders and all the people, "You are witnesses today that I have bought from the hand of Naomi all that belonged to Elimelech and all that belonged to Chilion and Mahlon. 10 Moreover, I have acquired Ruth the Moabitess, the widow of Mahlon, to be my wife in order to raise up the name of the deceased on his inheritance, so that the name of the deceased will not be cut off from his brothers or from the court of his birth place; you are witnesses today." 11 All the people who were in the court, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses. May the LORD make the woman who is coming into your home like Rachel and Leah, both of whom built the house of Israel; and may you achieve wealth in Ephrathah and become famous in Bethlehem. 12 Moreover, may your house be like the house of Perez whom Tamar bore to Judah, through the offspring which the LORD will give you by this young woman."
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son. 14 Then the women said to Naomi, "Blessed is the LORD who has not left you without a redeemer today, and may his name become famous in Israel. 15 May he also be to you a restorer of life and a sustainer of your old age; for your daughter-in-law, who loves you and is better to you than seven sons, has given birth to him."
16 Then Naomi took the child and laid him in her lap, and became his nurse. 17 The neighbor women gave him a name, saying, "A son has been born to Naomi!" So they named him Obed. He is the father of Jesse, the father of David.
18 Now these are the generations of Perez: to Perez was born Hezron, 19 and to Hezron was born Ram, and to Ram, Amminadab, 20 and to Amminadab was born Nahshon, and to Nahshon, Salmon, 21 and to Salmon was born Boaz, and to Boaz, Obed, 22 and to Obed was born Jesse, and to Jesse, David.- Many scholars think that the book of Ruth was edited into its final form during the reign of King David, putting down in writing the family history of the great king. Matthew brings out the fact in his genealogy (Matthew 1) that at least 4 of the women in King Jesus' genealogy came from "dubious" backgrounds, and Ruth as a foreigner fits the pattern. But she was a godly foreigner, who sought the God of Israel.
- Matthew also makes known that Boaz's mother was Rahab, the prostitute from Jericho! Perhaps this was an unusual family heritage for Boaz? Did he have a normal childhood, or was he disdained by his peers? More speculation: was Salmon one of the two spies who entered Jericho and first met Rahab? What would it be like to have a top-ranked soldier/intelligence officer as a father? Did Boaz know Joshua? Did Boaz serve in the army during the actual Canaanite conquest? Interesting, that Boaz's mother AND wife were both non-Israelites who 'converted' / sought out the God of Israel (while many of Boaz' peers were converting in the other direction, seeking out the Caananite gods).- Finally, consider how Boaz's character is a 'type' or 'picture' or 'foreshadowing' of Christ... in extreme generosity, in reaching out to those 'outside' the flock of God, in becoming a 'redeemer' and supporter and husband of a 'foreigner', who had no claim or rights to God's love or the family of God (the Israelite nation, at that time). An honorable, esteemed, man of integrity, whose name means "Strength", a "man of great wealth", willing to 'go all-in' and 'jeopardize his own inheritance'... why? out of pity? out of romantic love? out of 'agape' love? A mixture of all of those motives?
The analogy breaks down because Ruth was by all accounts a high quality, godly, woman. In our case, by contrast, Jesus Christ loved us and sought us out and died for us and prepared an inheritance for us "while we were still sinners", totally undeserving of love or favor. Christ's love is far higher, greater, better, than Boaz's.(I'm running out of time so this entry will be much shorter for now.)
3. Regarding this article about "Human Zoos" of 150 years ago ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16295827 ), the article tries to tie it to "Christian evangelism and cultural superiority". Ha! What a quote.. what a misleading linkage of words. The museum tries to tie these Zoos to "othering", a concept from literary studies in which one culture emphasizes the difference between itself and another culture.
However, many questions arise, like: "Does the museum consider its own perspective (and culturally-conditioned postmodern beliefs) superior to the culture of 150 years ago? If so, on what basis?"
If one examines the literature more closely, these zoos and the milieu of that time were based NOT on "Christian evangelism", but on Darwinism and its precursors! On the theory of evolution. For more details, see http://creation.com/evolutionary-racism and http://creation.com/racism-questions-and-answers .
Comments (11)
"The Bible clearly states that it is the "TRUE" "knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord" which sets one free from lust and corruption."
So you believe that only christians can be un-corrupt and set free from lust? Every type of behavior or ethical (or unethical) action is found among members of every religious and philosophical group to some degree. The idea that only x group have the ability to be exceptionally good and everyone else is basically evil is, aside from being bigoted, simply factually inaccurate and can be dis-proven statistically any number of ways.
As for this:
"God came down to earth (celebrated at Christmas), walked around, taught, lived, died, and rose again... and it is because of that historical fact that we can know that the pantheistic/atheistic philosophies such as Buddhism are false..."
That a man named jesus was said to be the messiah is a historical fact, that he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven etc is an article of faith. These sorts of claims have been made of thousands of people throughout history and are made of people living right now - there are several popular christian messiahs alive as we speak, one with a million followers, another with half a million. There are hindu godmen who are believed by their followers to routinely perform miracles, even the founder of buddhism (who never claimed to have divine powers) had similar miracles to christ attributed to him after his death, such as virgin birth. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but your argument amounts to cultural bias. Christians think these things are facts - most of the world does not.
As for the human zoo, the actual science of evolution has never supported racism (and actually flatly debunks it, since racism requires uniformity and evolution requires tremendous diversity). Evolutionary biology says that populations adapt to subjective environments so that no one species is superior to another, just better adapted to another environment. Racism says that all of x group are in all ways superior to all of y group, usually for psychological reasons of ego gratification, trying to belong to a group with similar views etc. But lets say for a moment that darwin was racist (he wasn't, but lets assume he was). In no way does that invalidate the science. Any more than if hitler said 1 + 1 = 2 he would be wrong because he's hitler. Darwin could've been a serial killer and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference as to whether his science was wrong or right.
The argument that we should ignore scientific ideas because they will lead us to do terrible things is not logically sound, especially since the only racism that seems to be inspired by racism is invariably ignorant of evolution and how it really works. If anything we need a more thorough knowledge of science so that when some idiot says "whites are more evolved than blacks" enough people in the audience are well-educated enough that one will have the ability to say "no they aren't you imbecile, and here's why".
No response?
Hi Mark,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I read them a couple days ago and didn't think there was any need for me to comment further. You made a lot of assertions with no supporting evidence, which it is your right to make if you choose... it's a free blogosphere. However, it seemed to me that just about every sentence you wrote was a straw-man argument or blatantly incorrect, so I saw no need to respond in detail. BTW, did you read the racism links that I posted? Just curious, because of your statement that Darwin was not a racist.
Let me just briefly mention the sentences I agree with, from what you posted, which seem to be free of straw-men or blatant error:
"Every type of behavior or ethical (or unethical) action is found among members of every religious and philosophical group to some degree"
"Christians think these things are facts - most of the world does not."
"Any more than if hitler said 1 + 1 = 2 he would be wrong because he's hitler. Darwin could've been a serial killer and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference as to whether his science was wrong or right."
@tim223 - "Hi Mark,"
You didn't tag me (by hitting reply), so I just now saw this response.
"Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I read them a couple days ago and didn't think there was any need for me to comment further."
And thanks for condescending.
"You made a lot of assertions with no supporting evidence,"
I thought most of what I said was self-evidently true. If you want me to support an assertion, why don't you ask me to? Unless you don't want evidence because it would make it harder to dismiss.
"which it is your right to make if you choose... it's a free blogosphere. However, it seemed to me that just about every sentence you wrote was a straw-man argument or blatantly incorrect, so I saw no need to respond in detail."
Please list the strawman arguments and the blatantly incorrect claims. I can find none of either in the above comments.
"BTW, did you read the racism links that I posted?"
Yes. My favorite bit was the darwin Q&A where they give an anti-eugenics quote from darwin where he says that if we ignored our sympathy for our fellow man it would deteriorate the noblest part of our nature - this quote was called barbaric and labeled "darwin vs compassion". People see what they want to see.
"Just curious, because of your statement that Darwin was not a racist."
He wasn't. Here's a quote from one of his letters:
"I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery. What a proud thing for England if she is the first European nation which utterly abolishes it! I was told before leaving England that after living in slave countries all my opinions would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the negro character. It is impossible to see a negro and not feel kindly towards him..."
"Let me just briefly mention the sentences I agree with, from what you posted, which seem to be free of straw-men or blatant error:
"Every type of behavior or ethical (or unethical) action is found among members of every religious and philosophical group to some degree"
"Christians think these things are facts - most of the world does not."
"Any more than if hitler said 1 + 1 = 2 he would be wrong because he's hitler. Darwin could've been a serial killer and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference as to whether his science was wrong or right."
The first seems incompatible with your view that only knowledge of the bible and the christian god sets people free from lust and corruption (if so then how are non-christians free from corruption to any degree?).
@agnophilo - Hi Mark,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Regarding Darwin, you wrote: "My favorite bit was the darwin Q&A where they give an anti-eugenics quote from darwin where he says that if we ignored our sympathy for our fellow man it would deteriorate the noblest part of our nature - this quote was called barbaric and labeled "darwin vs compassion".
Here's the full Darwin quote, from http://creation.com/darwin-versus-compassion,
"With savages, the weak in body and mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick; we institute poor laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of everyone to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands who, from a weak constitution, would formerly have succumbed to smallpox. Thus the weak members of civilised society propagate their kind.
"No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but, excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.
"The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered in the manner previously indicated more tender and more widely diffused. Nor can we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature … We must, therefore, bear the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind.
If you read the entire context, you will notice that Darwin is lamenting the fact that "civilized man" cares for the sick and weak. He is saying that it is unfortunate that people feel they have to care for their weak and sick friends, due to "sympathy", and because if this emotion was "checked", it would result in "deterioration of the noblest part of our nature". He is not saying that it is "noble" to take care of the sick and the weak, and certainly not saying that it is wise, or advantageous, or best, to do so. He is simply saying that it is unfortunately impossible to refrain from taking care of the sick and the weak because if we tried to stop ourselves, we would damage the other, "noblest" parts of our nature. I agree with Creation.com that Darwin's view is indeed barbaric.
Your quote from Darwin - "It is impossible to see a negro and not feel kindly towards him..." is interesting... that is nice that Darwin felt kindly toward the Negros he saw. But that does not mean he wasn't a racist. I know many people who "feel kindly" toward dogs, cats, horses, hamsters, etc. Darwin believed the Negros were less highly evolved than the Caucasians (as seen in the longer quote above, and other places), so he was a racist. Apparently though, a nice, kindly racist.
You asked: "Every type of behavior or ethical (or unethical) action is found among members of every religious and philosophical group to some degree" [The previous sentence] seems incompatible with your view that only knowledge of the bible and the christian god sets people free from lust and corruption (if so then how are non-christians free from corruption to any degree?)."
Good question. The Bible teaches that all people are created in the image of God, and retain some moral knowledge even though being marred by sin. For example, Romans 2 - "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."
Thus, nonChristians can do many good things and live a (outwardly) moral life, because they have moral knowledge and faculties which retain some knowledge of right and wrong. In fact, as C.S.Lewis discusses in "Mere Christianity", a nonChristian might perchance live a much more outwardly commendable life than a Christian, if, say, the nonChristian was raised by parents who instilled politeness and "good morals" in him wheras the Christian grew up in an environment in which he learned bad habits. God will judge people by what they have been given... and also, God will judge "the secrets of men"... that is, even when a man looks really righteous and moral outwardly, we humans cannot see inside his mind to know whether he is doing it with right motives or with proud/selfish motives. But God sees the inward thoughts, and will eventually judge humans based on that complete knowledge.
For example, let's say a young atheist decides not to commit fornication because he thinks to himself "I'm better than that." In one sense he has 'escaped corruption', the corruption of fornication... and his life will probably be happier because of it. But he has utilized pride (a different sin) in order to stave off fornication, and might never have noticed it. Gradually, throughout his life, his pride might increase and increase without him ever noticing it, and he will arrive at the end of his life, immensely proud at what a "fine moral life" he has lived, "so much better than his religious friends" who fell into this sin or that sin. But when he stands before God, God will reveal his pride for the evil that it is, not only to him, but in front of the whole world.
E.g. Luke 12:2-3 - " 1 Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. 3 Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops. 4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! "
@tim223 - "Hi Mark, Thanks for your thoughts."
You're welcome.
"Regarding Darwin, you wrote: "My favorite bit was the darwin Q&A where they give an anti-eugenics quote from darwin where he says that if we ignored our sympathy for our fellow man it would deteriorate the noblest part of our nature - this quote was called barbaric and labeled "darwin vs compassion".
"Here's the full Darwin quote, from http://creation.com/darwin-versus-compassion,"
I know the full quote.
"With savages, the weak in body and mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick; we institute poor laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of everyone to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands who, from a weak constitution, would formerly have succumbed to smallpox. Thus the weak members of civilised society propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but, excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed. The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered in the manner previously indicated more tender and more widely diffused. Nor can we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature … We must, therefore, bear the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind." If you read the entire context, you will notice that Darwin is lamenting the fact that "civilized man" cares for the sick and weak. He is saying that it is unfortunate that people feel they have to care for their weak and sick friends, due to "sympathy", and because if this emotion was "checked", it would result in "deterioration of the noblest part of our nature". He is not saying that it is "noble" to take care of the sick and the weak, and certainly not saying that it is wise, or advantageous, or best, to do so. He is simply saying that it is unfortunately impossible to refrain from taking care of the sick and the weak because if we tried to stop ourselves, we would damage the other, "noblest" parts of our nature. I agree with Creation.com that Darwin's view is indeed barbaric."
No, he is lamenting the harm caring for the weak does while citing the sympathy that compels us to care for the weak the noblest part of our nature and saying we ought not to suppress it. If that weren't clear enough he continues:
"The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage."
What he meant is very clear to any honest reader.
"Your quote from Darwin - "It is impossible to see a negro and not feel kindly towards him..." is interesting... that is nice that Darwin felt kindly toward the Negros he saw. But that does not mean he wasn't a racist. I know many people who "feel kindly" toward dogs, cats, horses, hamsters, etc. Darwin believed the Negros were less highly evolved than the Caucasians (as seen in the longer quote above, and other places), so he was a racist. Apparently though, a nice, kindly racist."
I noticed you glossed entirely over the whole abolitionist section. And I'm sorry, but you claimed darwin was racist, the onus is on you to support that claim, not on me to debunk it. So please give your best racist darwin quote. I've heard many supposed racist darwin quotes and never found a genuine one yet. Most are taken out of context and some are even fabrications.
"Good question. The Bible teaches that all people are created in the image of God, and retain some moral knowledge even though being marred by sin. For example, Romans 2 - "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."
So then one does not automatically need "knowledge of the bible" to be free from corruption and sin and that statement is incorrect? And I don't think morality is something any group has a monopoly on.
"Thus, nonChristians can do many good things and live a (outwardly) moral life, because they have moral knowledge and faculties which retain some knowledge of right and wrong."
Do you appreciate how condescending you sound? You describe atheists as though we were monkeys and christians were scholars. Yes, we retain some dim understanding of right and wrong...
You then go on to lecture me about the sin of pride... I suggest you remove the plank from your own eye first.
"In fact, as C.S.Lewis discusses in "Mere Christianity", a nonChristian might perchance live a much more outwardly commendable life than a Christian, if, say, the nonChristian was raised by parents who instilled politeness and "good morals" in him wheras the Christian grew up in an environment in which he learned bad habits. God will judge people by what they have been given... and also, God will judge "the secrets of men"... that is, even when a man looks really righteous and moral outwardly, we humans cannot see inside his mind to know whether he is doing it with right motives or with proud/selfish motives. But God sees the inward thoughts, and will eventually judge humans based on that complete knowledge."
Again, extremely condescending. If an atheist is raised by a saint and a christian is raised by a serial killer it's hypothetically possible the christian might maybe "outwardly" sort of kind of a little bit in a sense possibly almost be not as good as the atheist almost.
In reality many atheists are vastly superior in every way to many christians and visa versa. Many christians are smarter than many atheists, more compassionate, more humble, less quick to anger, less judgemental etc, and many atheists are more of all of those things than many christians. There are christian scoundrels and atheists with character of wrought iron and the opposite and everything in between.
When I acknowledge the good in christians I don't have to qualify it as if atheists are the only people of any real, intrinsic or significant value.
"For example, let's say a young atheist decides not to commit fornication because he thinks to himself "I'm better than that." In one sense he has 'escaped corruption', the corruption of fornication... and his life will probably be happier because of it. But he has utilized pride (a different sin) in order to stave off fornication, and might never have noticed it. Gradually, throughout his life, his pride might increase and increase without him ever noticing it, and he will arrive at the end of his life, immensely proud at what a "fine moral life" he has lived, "so much better than his religious friends" who fell into this sin or that sin. But when he stands before God, God will reveal his pride for the evil that it is, not only to him, but in front of the whole world."
And christians don't do this? I've known many christians who abstain at least in part so they can look down their nose at people for having sex. To put atheists in a separate moral category as though this were a problem just they might face is insulting.
"E.g. Luke 12:2-3 - " 1 Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. 3 Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops. 4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!"
I can see how this might frighten someone with a lot of guilt or a shady past, but I'm not one of them. I've spent my life caring for a disabled parent, being a good friend, trying to be a good brother to a sister who was too neurotic to appreciate it, trying to survive my father, and generally giving a lot of thought to what is right and why. I've turned down sex from an 18 year old girl who I was very attracted to because I thought it was the right thing to do. I've walked away after being punched in the face when everything in me wanted to clean the other kid's clock. And I didn't do a bit of it out of pride.
So please, condescend to someone else.
Oh, and darwin didn't think blacks were "less highly evolved", evolution doesn't even work that way.
@agnophilo - Hi Mark,
You wrote: "And christians don't do this? I've known many christians who abstain at least in part so they can look down their nose at people for having sex. To put atheists in a separate moral category as though this were a problem just they might face is insulting."
I agree with you that Christians can fall into pride just as much as anyone else. I'm sorry that you continue to think that I am 'condescending', which is not my intention. I also agree with you that Christians can be / are sinners just like everyone else. The main difference is that those who repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ are completely forgiven (legally before God) from all their sins... and gradually over the years God helps them to "put to death" their sins (practically in daily life) and grow in righteousness. But as you say, it might not be apparent to someone looking at their life from the outside, based on the environment from which they've come. Also, according to the Bible there are many people who claim to be believers in Jesus Christ but are actually not...
You wrote: "I can see how this might frighten someone with a lot of guilt or a shady past, but I'm not one of them. I've spent my life caring for a disabled parent, being a good friend, trying to be a good brother to a sister who was too neurotic to appreciate it, trying to survive my father, and generally giving a lot of thought to what is right and why. I've turned down sex from an 18 year old girl who I was very attracted to because I thought it was the right thing to do. I've walked away after being punched in the face when everything in me wanted to clean the other kid's clock. And I didn't do a bit of it out of pride."
Those all sound like good actions. I commend and respect you for them. But regarding 2 Peter 1:2-4 which is where this discussion started, have you ever experienced coveteousness or lust of any kind (not necessarily sexual)? Have you ever done anything wrong in your life? The only reason I ask is that from what you wrote (I can see how this might frighten someone with a lot of guilt or a shady past, but I'm not one of them), it seems that you consider yourself a highly moral person.... and I want to remind you that the Bible says that only someone who is literally perfect will be able to live with God after death. "Pretty good" / "highly moral" / "my good deeds far outweigh my bad deeds" is not enough. Even a tiny amount of sin indicates that you or I are a "sinner", and thus deserve extermination according to the Bible.
"I agree with you that Christians can fall into pride just as much as anyone else."
No, you don't. You say you do, and then say that god helps christians be better people and that this is the only way to be a better person. I addressed these remarks several times in the previous comment and you just ignored it. Why?
"I'm sorry that you continue to think that I am 'condescending', which is not my intention."
Which ironically is a condescending apology. "I'm sorry you think I'm condescending to you". This is like insulting someone and then saying "I'm sorry you're stupid enough to think I've insulted you somehow". Not really an apology, is it? An apology is accepting wrong action, taking responsibility and trying to make amends, not deflecting responsibility.
"I also agree with you that Christians can be / are sinners just like everyone else. The main difference is that those who repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ are completely forgiven (legally before God) from all their sins..."
I not only don't believe in a god who judges people, but even if I believed in one I would not believe in third party absolution. The function of guilt is to compel us to right our wrongs, third party absolution defeats the purpose. I think the doctrine that I can rape a 15 year old and then go get forgiven by god without making reparations to my victim is patently immoral. The appeal of such a system is usually when a culture invents many "crimes" which aren't actual crimes or for which no amends can be made. Irrational guilt needs an irrational outlet. But rational guilt (hurting someone and feeling bad about it) can easily be resolved by making amends with no need for a deity.
"and gradually over the years God helps them to "put to death" their sins (practically in daily life) and grow in righteousness."
Your faith may help you to become a better person, just as keeping in mind any good role model might be a reminder to improve yourself or your attitudes or behavior. But I don't think it's god that does it, and I don't think character building is something only christians have access to.
"But as you say, it might not be apparent to someone looking at their life from the outside, based on the environment from which they've come. Also, according to the Bible there are many people who claim to be believers in Jesus Christ but are actually not..."
So if someone is an atheist and a terrible person they're a terrible atheist. But if someone's a christian and a terrible person, they don't count as a christian. This equating "christian" with "moral" has been the source of much bigotry (and bloodshed) for many, many centuries. And it's just ethnocentrism. To quote alan watts:
"...if for example you get into discussions as to whether Buddha was a more profound and spiritual character than Jesus Christ, you arrive at your decision on the basis of a scale of values which is of course Christian, and in this sense the judge and the advocate are the same."
"Those all sound like good actions. I commend and respect you for them."
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. You're going to say they're "outwardly" good actions or they make me "appear" to be a decent person, right?
"But regarding 2 Peter 1:2-4 which is where this discussion started, have you ever experienced coveteousness or lust of any kind (not necessarily sexual)?"
I grew up about as poor as you can be in america without being homeless (single parent who suffered from worsening disabilities). So I appreciate the value of things much more than most of my peers and am not prone to covet anything. I think the last time I felt a twinge of jealousy was a few years ago when I found out my former boss made 50k a year from just one client. That lasted a few seconds. Besides, in the modern world coveting your neighbor's goods is actually a useful thing, because we live in a world where your neighbor's goods are mass-produced and available at the local store. To quote george carlin, "coveting creates jobs, leave it alone". As for lust, everyone feels lust, it's not an option. To feel guilt for feeling lust at all is like feeling guilt for feeling pain at all, while you can avoid situations where you might feel either feeling it at all is something entirely beyond your control and both are controlled largely by your unconscious mind. Besides, I don't think someone's feelings are what make themm good or bad, their actions do. And the greater the feeling often the more impressive the action (or inaction). If for instance one soldier on the battlefield is terrified and another is not and both stay and fight the battle, the more frightened soldier in my opinion is the more impressive one. By the same token if someone has the compulsion to molest children and spends their life suppressing it so they don't harm anyone, they deserve a medal. Our actions, not our nature, determine our moral character. Because our conscious, rational mind is the only part of ourselves we can directly control. It can influence other parts of our mind over time (with or without faith), but feeling lust is not a sin. Jesus got that one wrong.
"Have you ever done anything wrong in your life? The only reason I ask is that from what you wrote (I can see how this might frighten someone with a lot of guilt or a shady past, but I'm not one of them), it seems that you consider yourself a highly moral person.... and I want to remind you that the Bible says that only someone who is literally perfect will be able to live with God after death. "Pretty good" / "highly moral" / "my good deeds far outweigh my bad deeds" is not enough. Even a tiny amount of sin indicates that you or I are a "sinner", and thus deserve extermination according to the Bible."
Which begs the question, if god is only interested in perfect beings, why did he create only imperfect ones? And he must be imperfect if we are.
None of it makes any sense.
Hi Mark,
You wrote: "Besides, I don't think someone's feelings are what make themm good or bad, their actions do. And the greater the feeling often the more impressive the action (or inaction). If for instance one soldier on the battlefield is terrified and another is not and both stay and fight the battle, the more frightened soldier in my opinion is the more impressive one."
I agree... I believe what the Bible teaches that God's final judgment will take into account not only our actions, but "what we were given" to start with.
You wrote: "Your faith may help you to become a better person, just as keeping in mind any good role model might be a reminder to improve yourself or your attitudes or behavior. But I don't think it's god that does it"
Ok, thanks for sharing your thoughts above, and the background that brought you to your conclusions.
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