May 13, 2007
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Do Jews go to heaven? Can Nazis go to heaven?
Here's a fascinating dialogue between a Jew, a Catholic, and some biblical Christians. It's only a five-minute read and very well worth it in my opinion.
Here's an excerpt:
DONAHUE: Thank you. Do these 16 million people believe Jews can go to heaven?
MOHLER: Southern Baptists, with other Christians, believe that all persons can go to heaven who come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is no discrimination on the basis of ethnic or racial or national issues, related to who will go to the Scriptures. It’s those who are in Christ. The defining issue is faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So a good Jew is not going to heaven.
MOHLER: Well, all persons are sinners in need of a savior. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator. And the gospel, we are told by the Apostle Paul, comes first to the Jews and then to the gentiles. And salvation is found in his name, and in his name alone, through faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So if a Nazi killed a Jew, a good Jew, practicing Jew, the Jew goes to hell, but the Nazi still has a chance to get to heaven. That would be the consequence of your position.
MOHLER: Well, the gospel is not just for the worst of us. The gospel is for all of us. And the scripture tells us the hard truth, that all have sinned. And that Nazi guard is going to be punished for his sin, and it will be judged as sin. His only hope would be the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. And the profound truth of the gospel is that the salvation that can come to any person who comes to faith in Christ-can come to that Jew who was killed and to that guard who does the killing. That’s the radical nature of the gospel.
I was listening last night to a debate between Messianic Jew Michael Brown and Rabbi David Blumofe. It's a wonderful debate to listen to and ponder. During the Q/A at the end, the concept was presented (in 'question form') of a Nazi mowing down innocent and pious Jews with a laugh and then praying to Jesus for salvation right before the Allies shoot him. The emotional question (posed also by Donohue) is: how could such a person go to heaven, when the pious Jews he killed go to hell? How could such extremely bad people go to a good destination, while the good people go to a bad destination?
Michael Brown answered the question very well - listen to the mp3 to hear his answer. I have a slightly different thought in reply (and why the hypothetical story is deeply flawed in its presented form). Actually two thoughts.
First, as Brown also mentioned, it is not enough to simply say that one believes in Jesus God's Messiah; one must actually believe (in one's heart or inner being). True repentance is necessary, not just the saying of a magic saving formula. This involves seeing oneself as God sees - i.e. agreeing with the Bible's portrayal of oneself as (not abstractly but personally) very very wicked and sinful, unable to please God, unable to ever earn one's salvation; in a word, doomed. And it involves true heart belief (inevitably producing action as fire produces heat and smoke) that Jesus' death-on-my-behalf is my only hope.
Second, the story overlooks the fact that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When the Jew is said to be "innocent" and "pious" compared to the Nazi, that is a human comparison looking at outward appearances. Compare the two next to each other, and sure - one is 'worse' than the other, outwardly speaking. The Holocaust Jew has never killed someone, etc.
But has the Jew ever told a lie? Has the Jew ever had an angry-without-cause or covetous thought toward someone? Has the Jew ever felt lust? Our sinfulness (and I am obviously including myself here) is usually buried beneath layers of piousness and outward showy good works... self-woven layers that everyone without exception enshrouds themselves with.
In response to the question of the Nazi and the Jew, the Bible says, "Hold on a second - every single person on earth has performed despicable acts of abominable evil against God and his/her fellow man, every day. Some people's acts are worse than others, but all have performed these acts. All, moreover, are 'sinners by nature', 'unable to please God' even if they wanted to... even our best deeds are soaked with pride and a refusal to honor God as He deserves."
Once the Nazi and the Jew are seen as two wicked sinners who are both deserving of hell, the flaws of the emotional argument above become evident. A more accurate picture might be a homeowner peeling up his floor and finding two termites, one of whom is abusing the other, but both of whom are destroying his house.
And it so happens that the same emotional picture is often asked with respect to other religions - Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. The Christian answer is: "Although there are moral distinctions that can be made on a relative scale, we need to look at the absolute scale. The truth is that both (and indeed every person on earth) deserve eternal destruction. But the good news is that God has provided a way - belief in Jesus God's Messiah - by which whoever believes can be saved! Jesus Christ underwent the eternal destruction that I deserved."
Comments (10)
Is a Jew who spits in the face of God's Son and rejects Him as Messiah a "good Jew"? The parable of the vineyard is apt.
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1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I would agree that the passage can only refer to the Jews as you describe above. This are some reasons why.
I'm sure you do recognise that the word all is always interpreted in its context. E.g. Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
Was the whole world taxed? No. It refers to the world under the Romans. Context determines the meaning of the word All. Even in English. The word "All" does not mean "All", all the time. (This last statement is a classic example of how all does not always mean all)
It is important to note that Arminians who really understand their theology do not believe that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Instead, they believe that Christ merely died for the suffering of the whole world. It is for this reason that leading Arminians such as Kenneth Grider, writes that Christ did not die for the sins of the world, but merely for the suffering of the world. For if Christ had died for the sins of the world, all would be saved. Arminians who bring up 1 John 2:2 are confused because they fail to see that their very position does not allow Christ to die for the sins of the whole world as well, but merely for their sufferings. Yet 1 John 2:2 is clearly speaking about Christ dying as the propitiation of our sins. If anything, they have just self-destruct Arminianism the moment they say that "All" in this passage refers to all in the world. I would say that these people who call themselve Arminians and use 1 John 2:2 against Calvinists are in reality, confused calvinists. The word for propitiation, in the greek, refers to a sacrifice to God meant to take away eminity brought by sin between God and the worshipper. If the eminity is taken away, a person can no longer be condemned - and many Arminians have come to recognised that.
Therefore, the only way to make sense of that passage, is to conclude that the "All" refers to those outside of the Jews (or outside of the community John is speaking to), otherwise, one is forced to conclude that salvation is universal for all in the world - something other passages in the bible clearly speaks against; especially passages about hell. 1 John 2:1, far from being a proof text for Arminianism, is actually its downfall.
1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Similarly, I would say that like 1 John 2:1, the world here refers to those either outside the jews, or outside the direct community of believers that John is speaking to. This usuage of the word 'world' is similar to that of 1 John 2:1, therefore, as shown earlier, since 1 John 2:1 can only be refering to those outside the Jews (or community John is preaching to), to be consistent in our interpretation of the text, John 4:14 has to be refering to the same - Christ being the saviour of the world - even those outside the Jews.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Chapter 2 is specifically speaking of false prophets and teachers. Are you refering to "Lord that bought them"?
Peter is not saying Christians whom Christ have bought, can lose their salvation. (John 10:28,29, Romans 8:23-30), but is describing the false teachers in terms of their own profession of faith. We understand this because later on in the chapter, in verse 20 and 21, it says, "For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." ESV
By teaching and practising immorality they despice the lordship of Christ and prove their profession to be false ( 1 John 2:3,4) 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Though the phrase, "the Lord who brought them" is taken by some to mean that Christ's substitutionary death applies to all rather than to the elect only, Peter's convern here is to highlight the responsibility of the false teachers rather than to advance a theory of the Atonement. With their claim to be redeemed by Christ, their "sensuality" (v.2) brings particulae dishonor on Christ and His sacrifice for sin.
John 10:15 makes it clear that Christ lay down his life for his sheep. the pharisees did not believe because they are not his sheep. (John 10:26)
These false professers of faith who are entrenched in their sinful sensuality in 2 Peter 2:1, are those that Jude speaks of in Jude 4. Jude 4 - For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (ESV)
These are people who have been designated for condemnation. Jude's opponents were guilty of antinomianism - the belief that Christians are under no obligation to follow the moral law as a rule of life. Such teachings was a persistant problem in the early church (as it is now in many modern churches) (Rom 3:8;6:15;1 Cor 6:12-15; Gal 5:13), especially where Paul's emphasis upon justification by grace through faith was misunderstood and perverted. Like the passage in 2 Peter, these false teachers deny the Master and Lord, Jesus Christ(vv.4) although they initially proclaim to believe.
Hebrews 2:9 - But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Here, "everyone" must be understood in the light of the context and of the results of Jesus' death described elsewhere in hebrews. It refers to the "many sons" whom God brings to glory (v.10), whom Jesus called "brothers" (v.11). Those for whom Jesus tasted death were mad eholy and perfect once for all by His sacrifice (10:10,14), their consciences cleansed from acts that lead to death (9:14), so they are freed from the fear of death (2:14,25). by contrast, there are those (even within Christian congregations) who do not trust the Son but subject Him to ridicule (6:6). For them, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement" (10:26,27). This "everyone" here includes all those (but only those) who perserve in trusting Jesus (3:5, 14)
I hope that helps.
A good starting place would be to get a good study bible. I highly recommend, "THE REFORMATION STUDY BIBLE, ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION", by Ligonier Ministries. Lots of what I typed here were lifted form there.
Have you ever read *Joshua* by Joseph F. Girzone?
Thanks for sharing this.
Dear SoccerDad for life - As a Jewish Believer, I would ask you not to talk about "the Jewish people spitting in the face of God's Son. It has been all of mankind who has sinned, not just the Jews. Maybe it would be good for your to sit down, one-on-one with someone who is a Jewish Believer in Jesus and hear what they have to say.
I love the Lord with all my heart and soul. But, I do understand the Jewish people. My parents are not believers, nor is my brother. I have found that prayer is my only hope. Do not judge so quickly. If you want to understand our breathren in the middle-east; Jew, Palistenian, Arab, etc., you should read the book LIGHT FORCE, by Brother Andrew.
We have "all" spit in the face of God; and it is only by His Grace that we have been Elected by Him and Saved.
In Y'shua
Mrs. Susan Grossman Swift
(Tim-can you forward this to your friend)?
Thanks for sharing this Tim. It was really insightful to read the dialogue and your comments.
Dear Mrs. Swift,
I would say the same about a gentile who spits in the face of Christ. However, the question was about a "good Jew", not about a "good gentile". For every Jew who is not a Christian, I can show many gentiles who are not Christians. Perhaps if we can allay some of the hostility between Jew and gentile, then the Lord may open salvation wider to the Jews. It seems that the Lord has shut it somewhat (Romans 10) so that He can reap a large number of gentiles. I am still amazed at the Lord's response to the Roman centurion who asked for healing for his servant and to the Syro-Phoenician woman when He recognized their great faith! I think that faith has a genetic component and that the scattering of Israel among the nations has been part of God's plan to sow that genetic seed of faith among the nations and reap many sons of Abraham.
I encourage you to get a Xanga subscription so that you can visit my site. You would then see that I emphasize messianic prophecies as the definition of the credentials that Messiah would present and the Torah's emphasis on eyewitnesses so as to show that the apostolic witness is proof that Yeshua presented proper credentials. I believe that it was critical to God's plan that proper witnesses could only be found among the Jews. Gentiles lacked the proper understanding of the relationship between witnesses, law, and knowledge to suffice as apostles. The legalistic nature of first-century Jewish culture was essential to the spreading of the gospel.
I don't believe that the messianic prophecies are primarily for persuading Jews. On the contrary, they are much more effective with gentiles in my experience. I believe, according to I Cor. 15:1-11, that they are an essential part of the gospel.
SDFL
Thanks, Tim. I think I understand. I can get personal and sometimes too passionate about these things.
May the Lord bless you.
Thanks so much for your friendship.
In Him,
Mrs. Swift
Let me know what you think of the comment I wrote above.
Okay. It's a book about a hypothetical situation: what if Christ chose to (return to earth quietly to) live and minister among people in this day and age? Interesting thoughts about the state of Christianity and Judaism today...
I appreciate your comment, Joel... I'll be pondering it.
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